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Author Topic: Flourocarbon clear?  (Read 722 times)

Oldfart9999

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Flourocarbon clear?
« on: December 02, 2017, 11:20:23 AM »

The question, is flourocarbon clear and invisible in water. No it is not, I don't care what the pros say about the line they are sponsored by they are telling an untruth. It has the same refraction as water, true, but it is ROUND, not flat, when you look through a round piece of glass you see the light being bent because of the shape, same thing with flourocarbon.
Rodney
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SteveTX

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Re: Flourocarbon clear?
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2017, 11:28:13 AM »

Oh come on man your going to break a lot of guys hearts brings logic into a fishing forum.  ~roflmao

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bigjim5589

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Re: Flourocarbon clear?
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2017, 06:48:58 PM »

It also has mass and displaces water, so creates some vibration in the water, which most likely is detected by their lateral line, so they know it's there. Fish don't react negatively to it, but not because it"s "invisible".

I've yet to see any indication they react negatively to the hi vis yellow braid that I use either, and it's certainly not invisible.  ~shade
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analfisherman

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Re: Flourocarbon clear?
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2017, 10:15:17 PM »

OK......ANAL time!  ~roflmao
WARNING:
IF YOUR A FLOUROCARBON BELIEVER..........YOU MAY NOT WANT TO READ THESE LINKS!!!!!!!!
  ;D

In reality, Flouros ONLY real benefits are UV degradation (minimal because UV only effects visible line) and sink ratio (which again you will find out is very minimal in the real world)along with water obsorbtion or lack of (which it SHINES at).
Nothing else, like visibility, stretch/elasticity, sensitivity and the majority of the rest of the fictitious claims

http://www.bigindianabass.com/big_indiana_bass/the-truth-about-fluorocarbon.html

http://www.tackletour.com/reviewfluorocarbon2pg2.html]http://www.tackletour.com/reviewfluorocarbon2pg2.html       OOOOOOOOOOOPS....sorry LOU

These aren't forums or manufacturers sites.............so I think I can make them 'live'.
If not.....let me know.........and I will make them 'non-live'.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 10:51:31 PM by analfisherman »
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Bassinlou

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Re: Flourocarbon clear?
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2017, 09:19:37 AM »

OK......ANAL time!  ~roflmao
WARNING:
IF YOUR A FLOUROCARBON BELIEVER..........YOU MAY NOT WANT TO READ THESE LINKS!!!!!!!!


In reality, Flouros ONLY real benefits are UV degradation (minimal because UV only effects visible line) and sink ratio (which again you will find out is very minimal in the real world)along with water obsorbtion or lack of (which it SHINES at).
Nothing else, like visibility, stretch/elasticity, sensitivity and the majority of the rest of the fictitious claims

http://www.bigindianabass.com/big_indiana_bass/the-truth-about-fluorocarbon.html

www.tackletour.com/reviewfluorocarbon2pg2.htmlwww.tackletour.com/reviewfluorocarbon2pg2.html

These aren't forums or manufacturers sites.............so I think I can make them 'live'.
If not.....let me know.........and I will make them 'non-live'.


Anal, PM sent.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 07:35:55 AM by Bassinlou »
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loomisguy

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Re: Flourocarbon clear?
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2017, 10:41:33 AM »

I don't think it's invisible nor do I think there's some big conspiracy by pro's and line manufacturer's to get into anyone's line budget. Don't like it..don't fish it.
 In my hands Flouro is a more sensitive line which is all that matter's to me..
 I bet Sunline and Seaguar keep on making it.
 
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SteveTX

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Re: Flourocarbon clear?
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2017, 04:23:04 PM »

Anal, PM sent.
Dang I got one of them before...  :(
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Smallie_Stalker

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Re: Flourocarbon clear?
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2017, 04:55:15 PM »

In reality, Flouros ONLY real benefits are UV degradation (minimal because UV only effects visible line) and sink ratio (which again you will find out is very minimal in the real world)along with water obsorbtion or lack of (which it SHINES at).
Nothing else, like visibility, stretch/elasticity, sensitivity and the majority of the rest of the fictitious claims

Well Joe, I know how meticulously you research everything, and I tend to agree with just about everything you said here, but I have to bring up the abrasion resistance issue.

A couple years back I read an article in Field & Stream where they did a side-by-side comparison in regards to abrasion resistance of all the various line types across a wide variety of manufacturers . Their testing method was to take a two by four and attach various grit sandpapers from very fine to very course and then see-saw the lines under tension back and forth across each grade of sandpaper counting the number of passes back and forth until they broke. In every single instance flouro far outlasted anything else. Since none of the lines tested were Field & Stream branded they had no dog in that fight and so I believe their results were honest.

So what have YOU found on the abrasion resistance issue of flouro compared to other lines. I would tend to trust your findings and research more than their article.

Knowing how you like to research this stuff I apologize in advance because I am sure my question will probably create more work for you to do to research this particular area of the discussion.

Thanks brother.  :)
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bigjim5589

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Re: Flourocarbon clear?
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2017, 05:47:26 PM »

Fluorocarbon has become the line of choice for fly fishing guides who target fish such as Tarpon or Snook that requires a higher degree of abrasion resistance. Both fish species are hard on lines due to their sharp or hard gill cover & jaw structures. For that type of application, it's a better choice than nylon based mono type lines because of the abrasion resistance, and not any other reason. Although I haven't checked that it's true, some are using it in equal or lighter breaking strengths (60 to 100 lb) than what was commonly used with mono, and that might relate to a thinner diameter depending on the brand, which would be advantageous.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 11:39:03 PM by bigjim5589 »
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rickdelprado

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Re: Flourocarbon clear?
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2017, 06:05:42 PM »

I don't know about it being clear or not. I use mono mostly, I have used Fluorcarbon as well. Only reason I use one over the other is if I want a floating line or not.

But I find both to be more abrasion resistant than braid when it comes to our lime stone rocks here.
The limestone rock lakes are also crystal clear water. So mono and fluoro are what I use. I've tried braid numerous times, and my fishing wasn't quite as fun because I just wasn't catching.
These are finicky fish in crystal clear water in public parks that are fished to death. I'll stick to the "clear" lines.  ~bb
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analfisherman

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Re: Flourocarbon clear?
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2017, 10:43:45 PM »

Smallie, I hope this is the article you meant.
I can't find any others...except the Big Game one.


https://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/honest-angler/2011/09/abrasion-resistance-test-fishing-lines#page-2

First and foremost, I'm not locked into any 'ONE' person or company's opinion on any subject......in reality I believe unless you hear and listen to BOTH sides of any topic with an open mind.........your really just searching for 'someone' who thinks and believes THE SAME AS YOU DO.....in other words 'agrees' with you.
And seeing I'm no where near the'sharpest hook in the tackle box'......I'm actually SURPRISED/AMAZED if and when someone agrees/thinks the same as me. ~b~
Hence the research addiction.  lo
(And these are other folks opinions/tests/thoughts/experiments, not necessarily mine or am I necessarily agreeing.
BUT, I am a believer in the science BEHIND peoples claims.)
Now on average anything that is stiffer or harder 'should' be more abrasion resistant.
Most Florouros are just that.
Hence, should be more abrasion resistant.
Makes sense.

But Field and Stream  ALSO touts the 'Abrasion Resistance' of Trieine Big Game.
Which is a mono line. (But it is stiffer/harder than your average mono)

In the end, I use Mono, Flouro, Braid and Coplys. (And guess why/when I use Floro.....Abrasion obstacles and toothy critters ;))
Anal. ;D

I wasn't trying to 'convince' ANYONE not to use Flouro ( WARNING:
IF YOUR A FLOUROCARBON BELIEVER..........YOU MAY NOT WANT TO READ THESE LINKS!!!!!!!!
Was meant to be a joke/humorous....I forgot the Smilley....which I now corrected.  8))

Last but not least........
Fishing tools are all about gaining  CONFIDENCE!
If any tool you use adds to your confidence....it will also add to your success!!!!!!

Smiley, if this was the article you mentioned you will see that in actuality, F&S believes that the 'sandpaper test' really isn't a true/accurate test of abrasion resistance....it's how manufacturers do it.
They say to do the 'Rock Test' to get real world results.


And REMEMBER everyone.....not all Flouros are created equal....one may tie better knots, one easier manageability, one better abrasion resistance, etc.

BUT I am truly GLAD you gave me homework and I found the article VERY INFORMATIVE!!!
THANKS!!!!!!
« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 11:10:10 PM by analfisherman »
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Smallie_Stalker

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Re: Flourocarbon clear?
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2017, 05:40:45 PM »

Thanks Joe.  ~c~

That is actually a different article. The one I read was in a print edition of the magazine.  In that one among other differences they didn't mention that the sandpaper test wan't accurate.

I never take any manufacturer or reviewers word as Gospel. I use it only as a starting point and then try things out for myself to see what I find to be true, at least in the way that I use whatever the product happens to be.

What you said here "Fishing tools are all about gaining  CONFIDENCE!
If any tool you use adds to your confidence....it will also add to your success!!!!!!" is absolutely correct.  ~sun
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rickdelprado

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Flourocarbon clear?
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2017, 06:32:24 AM »

Anal , Big Game is a really good line for abrasion resistance, getting hung up, fishing lures that you want a greater chance of getting back when you get hung.

It is slightly thicker than other mono and like you said stiffer. It also has quite a bit of stretch.
It is harder to manage (kvd conditioner takes care of that) than other mono lines and itís a pain to make an improved clinch knot on Lol.
But itís what Iím using currently for my spinnerbaits,cranks,topwater, and chatterbaits.


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analfisherman

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Re: Flourocarbon clear?
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2017, 06:57:41 AM »

Rick, I agree.
I have 12lb. Big Game on a rod I use for a River setup.
I toss a Fluke up River in front of the Pilings, current then takes it and the line/fluke wraps against piling so the bait swims right next to piling.....once it crosses piling tip it free float down the other side......VERY EFFECTIVE presentation and Big Game is a key part of it.
Also toss a 1/16 oz. ball head jig and a 3in. twister tail...same presentation

I use Trilene XL when I'm Pan Handling too.
It will almost out cast braid and super lines.....especially long casting 1/32 oz. ball head jigs with a 2in. twister grub.
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Oldfart9999

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Re: Flourocarbon clear?
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2017, 08:08:45 AM »

I do use flourocarbon, for baits that sink because it sinks taking some of the bow out of the line in the water.
Rodney
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Bassun67

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Re: Flourocarbon clear?
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2017, 10:38:42 AM »

I can't agree more with analfisherman!  ~c~

My point is science seems not able to give us much about the real scenario. In my view, it's only a reference or a viewpoint, that one may take what he/she wants. If you believe the story, no matter how and what it is presented (biased personal experiences, PRO's money-based recommendations, texts on the label, video commercials or commercial videos whatever, etc), then you buy the product linked to that story. The point is not if it's true, the point is if you believe.

For abrasion resistance, see these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41XV9bjSeTA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiQTvmM-1cY

Is it science? YES. Do you believe it? It's up to you. Another issue is, even I believe it, I don't care. ::)

For "clear" (this thread), scientifically speaking, the "water" we fish is not even clear. So why bother if FC is clear? In real word, there are many stuff (algae, green & red weed, bacteria, dust, sunlight, clay, particles, rock REFLECTIONs... and so on ) mixed with water. The fish does not see through water, it sees through both water and those stuff. My point is, even the "water" fish see is not definitely "clear". In that case, the line would be better to exactly mimic the whole environment, but not only water itself. BTW, I know pure water is clear. ;D

In the past 4 years I used Sunine shooter (super fluorocarbon), Sunline FC leader and Sunline shooter FC sniper (invisible). I heard they are likely the best FC lines and I would like to see how best they are. The color of the former 2 lines is "transparent" (clear) and the Sunline Shooter FC sniper (invisible) is not very "clear". It's clear but with a bit green and a bit red, and I believe it SEEMS more in line with the "water color" I fish.

....ok, let's be even more honest.

For FC line, I can see "clear" and "abrasion resistance" are the points that fishing line companies think the customers would buy. In other words, Customers have been educated to care more about these two points. That's why most FC lines focus on these 2 "selling" points.

"The customers need it, then we sell it. If they did not know it, let's educate them firstly."  In my view, there is little to do with how, why and what science says. It is more about what customers "believe".

This is not the only case in fishing business. In medicine, which I am more familiar with, it's even more like this. The pharmaceutical companies sell "diseases", make us believe those superficial "symptoms" (e.g., arthritis, osteoporosis and female sexual dysfunction and so on...including "Restless Legs Syndrome") are very worse to our life. I mean, they educate us the importance of "XXX" many years earlier before selling drugs for treating "XXX". It's called marketing - Create the need. 

By the way, talking about education, I have a question. If people over 60 yr will 100% get "osteoporosis", which is NORMAL to "people over 60", do you think osteoporosis is still a DISEASE for people over 60 to be treated? If not, how about 90% or 80% people over 60 yr will get "osteoporosis"? Do you think those rest 10-20% people over 60 yr need to be educated and medically treated? To be honest, my knowledge tells me I don't need to care. I don't even care that I have grey hair since 17.  ~beer~

For "education", Sunline shooter FC sniper (invisible) shows "camouflage bass fishing line" on its box. Ha! I love this word "camouflage", at least it makes sense to me. Well, I was successfully brainwashed that the line with "a bit green and a bit red" color is the best for "camouflage". I bought one. ;D     

I believe fish (bass) don't care "clear" that much. I fish Crucian carp for many years and I believe they DO care, especially in a fishing pressured pond. My experience educated me that. ;D

« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 12:49:23 PM by Bassun67 »
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merc1997

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Re: Flourocarbon clear?
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2017, 12:28:06 PM »

The question, is flourocarbon clear and invisible in water. No it is not, I don't care what the pros say about the line they are sponsored by they are telling an untruth. It has the same refraction as water, true, but it is ROUND, not flat, when you look through a round piece of glass you see the light being bent because of the shape, same thing with flourocarbon.
Rodney
correct.  when i get time, i will tell the story of fishing with on of the guides at Fork.

bo
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merc1997

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Re: Flourocarbon clear?
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2017, 09:49:39 PM »

now, i will finish the story.  one of the days that i fished on Fork, the guy with me said they were catching them whacky rigging.  he breaks out a setup with 10 lb. floro.  i asked why, and the response was it was more invisible.  so, i rigged up a 3/16 head on 50 lb. hi-vis yellow braid, and we went whacky fishing.  of course we fished boat docks, and i am not a dock skipping guru.  so, he had his lure way back under all the docks, but i caught the only two fish we had.  so, i asked him on the way home if his non-visible floro got him more bites.  he said that it sure enough opened his eyes  that a visible line did not hinder getting bites, and sure an aid in seeing bites.

as far as the abrasion bit, i just do not have a problem with braid.  we fish in a lot of rocks, and i do not have any issues with cutting the line into.  yes, you can cut your line into on a rock with braid, but those that do cause the issue themselves.

i might even use floro once in a while if it would stand up to my hook set, but it does not, and i would want a hi-vis version to use.

bo
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analfisherman

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Re: Flourocarbon clear?
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2017, 11:08:15 PM »

Bassun, great links.  ~c~
GREAT post!  ~c~
AND the facts about how clear is the real life clarity of our waters and the simple reflection of the sun angles and wave movement (which I've posted about before) really should amaze folks.
Your real world experiences.
Your insight into marketing and the use of science in marketing is something very few folks understand/understood.

In my career and after training 100's of folks........the very first step was to 'create the need'.
Now did I/we actually create the need or inform of the need...........VERY FINE LINE. ;) :)
So my real first step was to make the 'sales force BELIEVE in the need.
Once that was accomplished....the rest was easy and basically was just teaching how to transfer the 'knowledge' of the need to your average human being.

All comes back to 'CONFIDENCE' I guess/BELIEVE.

Thanks for a great post!
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rickdelprado

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Re: Flourocarbon clear?
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2017, 05:52:36 AM »

yes, you can cut your line into on a rock with braid, but those that do cause the issue themselves.

bo
Bo how does an angler cause the issue themselves?
How would the angler prevent having this issue?

Say Iím night fishing from the bank and casting 20-30 yards past a 2-5 foot limestone rock ledge.
Short of re-tying and or checking line for abrasion after every cast thereís not much an angler can do. Thatís if you donít get hung in the first place.
Then to top it off its night time so seeing abrasion on braid is not easy.
BTW this is a real life scenario.


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merc1997

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Re: Flourocarbon clear?
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2017, 10:06:22 AM »

Bo how does an angler cause the issue themselves?
How would the angler prevent having this issue?

Say Iím night fishing from the bank and casting 20-30 yards past a 2-5 foot limestone rock ledge.
Short of re-tying and or checking line for abrasion after every cast thereís not much an angler can do. Thatís if you donít get hung in the first place.
Then to top it off its night time so seeing abrasion on braid is not easy.
BTW this is a real life scenario.


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it is called following the rules of braid.  when hung up in rocks, you point your rod straight at the lure and gently pull straight back.  do not load the rod.  do not bow twang.  braid has no stretch and that is why you can not jerk your rod as you do with lines with stretch.  if gently pulling does not get the job done, then get over the top and pull straight up with the rod pointed at the lure.  do not lift up on the rod and load.  if that has not done the trick, then i get out the lure retriever.  when you get the lure loose, you have to visually inspect braid.  any fuzzies show, then it needs to be retied.  other problems that some have thinking the braid is cutting into is the fact that their knot is not holding.  had this issues myself when first starting to use braid.  but, i did not immediately blame the braid was at fault and started doing some testing and the knot was letting go.  i still use the same knot, but with braid have to use more wraps.  even a palomar knot will let go sometimes with braid because of its slickness.




we have very rough abrasive cedar trees that tear up floro and mono, but will not affect braid any what so ever when hossing a bass up through them.

floro hold up well on a hookset except when you use a slack line set and snap it, and that is where i have the issue with using floro.  moving baits it would probably work for me, but for jigs, worms and what most of us would term as bottom baits, i pop it into on the hookset too many times to use it.  with floro, you even have to be extremely careful tying your knot or you will fracture the line and this is when floro will fail.

to get along with braid, you have to follow the rules of the line.  maybe i might do a video and put it up on our you tube channel.  i know that i have had folks fish with me that could never get along with braid and after i taught the rules while we where fishing, they get along great with it now.

speaking of clear water fishing, i even use braid fishing in the creeks here for smallmouth and i can not tell any drop off in bites from when i used a green or clear mono, or clear blue florescent.

bottom line is to use what does the best job for you.  braid just works better for me because of not having any stretch and more easily drives the hook through bone.

bo
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rickdelprado

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Re: Flourocarbon clear?
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2017, 10:37:43 AM »

it is called following the rules of braid.  when hung up in rocks, you point your rod straight at the lure and gently pull straight back.  do not load the rod.  do not bow twang.  braid has no stretch and that is why you can not jerk your rod as you do with lines with stretch.  if gently pulling does not get the job done, then get over the top and pull straight up with the rod pointed at the lure.  do not lift up on the rod and load.  if that has not done the trick, then i get out the lure retriever.  when you get the lure loose, you have to visually inspect braid.  any fuzzies show, then it needs to be retied.  other problems that some have thinking the braid is cutting into is the fact that their knot is not holding.  had this issues myself when first starting to use braid.  but, i did not immediately blame the braid was at fault and started doing some testing and the knot was letting go.  i still use the same knot, but with braid have to use more wraps.  even a palomar knot will let go sometimes with braid because of its slickness.




we have very rough abrasive cedar trees that tear up floro and mono, but will not affect braid any what so ever when hossing a bass up through them.

floro hold up well on a hookset except when you use a slack line set and snap it, and that is where i have the issue with using floro.  moving baits it would probably work for me, but for jigs, worms and what most of us would term as bottom baits, i pop it into on the hookset too many times to use it.  with floro, you even have to be extremely careful tying your knot or you will fracture the line and this is when floro will fail.

to get along with braid, you have to follow the rules of the line.  maybe i might do a video and put it up on our you tube channel.  i know that i have had folks fish with me that could never get along with braid and after i taught the rules while we where fishing, they get along great with it now.

speaking of clear water fishing, i even use braid fishing in the creeks here for smallmouth and i can not tell any drop off in bites from when i used a green or clear mono, or clear blue florescent.

bottom line is to use what does the best job for you.  braid just works better for me because of not having any stretch and more easily drives the hook through bone.

bo

The rules of braid you mentioned make sense, but I wasn't necessarily asking about getting hung, that's an entirely different thing.
I was talking about a case where you are literally dragging a worm or jig, up a rock ledge. Without having the benefit of fishing over it, or fishing parallel to it (from a boat). If I am fishing perpendicular to a ledge (from the bank) and my line is sliding up the rocks even without getting hung eventually that line will start to fray. It will happen with mono, fluoro, copoly, and braid. The rubbing of the line on rock will do that especially on jagged edges like our limestone here. In this case there is nothing you can do except check your line after every cast, and select a line that can handle abrasion better so that when you are half way up the ledge and you get a bite you don't end up having your line snap on hookset, or fighting the fish due to the weakened piece of line. 
Or don't fish that place at all. But then you'd be missing out on a good amount of fish when half the lake has this rock ledge and the fish are posted up on it.

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merc1997

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Re: Flourocarbon clear?
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2017, 11:04:48 AM »

The rules of braid you mentioned make sense, but I wasn't necessarily asking about getting hung, that's an entirely different thing.
I was talking about a case where you are literally dragging a worm or jig, up a rock ledge. Without having the benefit of fishing over it, or fishing parallel to it (from a boat). If I am fishing perpendicular to a ledge (from the bank) and my line is sliding up the rocks even without getting hung eventually that line will start to fray. It will happen with mono, fluoro, copoly, and braid. The rubbing of the line on rock will do that especially on jagged edges like our limestone here. In this case there is nothing you can do except check your line after every cast, and select a line that can handle abrasion better so that when you are half way up the ledge and you get a bite you don't end up having your line snap on hookset, or fighting the fish due to the weakened piece of line. 
Or don't fish that place at all. But then you'd be missing out on a good amount of fish when half the lake has this rock ledge and the fish are posted up on it.
yep, fishing uphill with any line changes many things and especially when dealing with a snagged lure and you are on the bank.  we still do quite a bit of dragging a lure uphill.  it is a very effective way to trigger bites.  one other thing that could be tried is to use a leader on the braid.  i have finally came up with a connection knot that has "knot" failed ever in testing.  i have caught numerous bass in testing it and have never had a failure.  of course, you can not use a leader on a baitcaster and use a micro guide rod.  so, i do have a backup system if i do ever find that i really need to use a leader with mono or floro.

so, from a boat, i have not had issues fishing in rocks with braid.  fishing uphill from the bank is going to be problematic regardless of what you use for line.

bo
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rickdelprado

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Re: Flourocarbon clear?
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2017, 11:50:56 AM »

Yeah i have yet to find a connection knot that I liked. I recently tried a blood knot after watching some YouTube videos and I recently had it fail as well. So I will stick with reels with braid, reels with mono. Or in some cases I have 2 spools per reel. If I need to make a change in line I switch my spool out.


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Oldfart9999

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Re: Flourocarbon clear?
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2017, 05:25:26 PM »

Yeah i have yet to find a connection knot that I liked. I recently tried a blood knot after watching some YouTube videos and I recently had it fail as well. So I will stick with reels with braid, reels with mono. Or in some cases I have 2 spools per reel. If I need to make a change in line I switch my spool out.


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The knot problem with leaders breaking at the knot is just one reason I'm switching to straight braid, it cost me when I had a 4 lb + smallmouth break off in a tournament, cost me a win.
Rodney
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