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Author Topic: Yet another braid question  (Read 1856 times)

Nomad

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Yet another braid question
« on: November 08, 2008, 06:30:15 PM »

I've been doing a lot of fishing early morning, before work, since spring so a lot of my fishing is done while it's still dark and at or shortly after first light.  Well, during the summer, I started using 30-pound Suffix braid on my spinning rod with Senkos and it worked very well.  During those times, the river I fish was stained with algae or mud from rains (sometimes very lightly, other times like green paint or coffee), and of course, I was fishing under low light conditions.  During the last 3-4 weeks, however, I noticed that the bite had really slowed and I thought that maybe it was due to "fall turnover."  Yesterday, I went out in a boat with a friend of mine, and we were both fishing wacky-rigged Senkos (the ONLY thing the fish would hit) - he was using fluoro, and I still had mine on the braid.  I managed one dink all morning, while he had several fish.  I started thinking about the fact that the water had cleared up since mid summer (visibility is now about 1-2 feet or so) so that maybe, the bass were seeing my braid.  I put my wacky rig onto another rod which has fluoro and shortly after, I started catching fish.  I've read quite a few posts here and elsewhere where people do use braid all year round, for various presentations but now I'm thinking there is a time and place for different lines, just like there's a time and place for various lures.  It may have been a coincidence that I suddenly started catching fish, but to me, it sure seems like the bass were seeing the braid and wouldn't hit my lure.  Another thing, the water temp is in the mid-50's and all the fish we did catch were caught in shallow water, right along the reeds/weeds or rocks.  We did see lots and lots of schooling fish, suspended in deeper water but couldn't get a bite to save our lives.  We tried spinner baits, Vibra Shocks, crank baits, shaky heads, Senkos - nothing at all.  I thought that during this time, the bass are getting ready for winter and feeding actively?  Anyway, getting back to the braid, what do you guys think?
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paxpress

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Re: Yet another braid question
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2008, 06:59:03 PM »

It could be that the fish could see the braid, but my guess is that the fall rate of the Senko on fluorocarbon was faster than with braid (all things being equal).  Braid floats where fluoro sinks (and faster than mono) so the braid could have been slowing the fall rate  :-*

OutdoorFrontiers

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Re: Yet another braid question
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2008, 07:41:52 PM »

pabasscat is thinking along the right lines, it's something physical that is affecting the lure and thus the bite, not the visibility of the line.  The fall rate could quite likely be the key factor.

A fish's brain isn't even developed enough to have pain receptors.  Do you honestly believe that a fish looks at your lure and thinks, "Hmmm, I see line, I'm not going to eat that!"

I routinely fish wacky rigged stick baits on braided line, however I don't use as heavy a line as you are.  I always use 8 or 10 pound PowerPro, tied directly to a 1/0 or 2/0 octopus hook and catch smallmouth and largemouth in lakes clear enough to see the bottom in 20 feet.  Visibility that has "cleared up" to 1 - 2 feet is extremely dirty to me.

Steve
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bigjim5589

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Re: Yet another braid question
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2008, 08:14:12 PM »

I agree with these guys, fall rate is the likely issue, and bass do not know what that line is!

You don't mention what the water temps were during the summer, but at 50 degrees, water is also a little denser than at a warmer temp. of say 70 to 80 degrees. That combined with a floating line material, braid, will cause it to fall even slower than it did when the water was warmer. Sometimes that's a good thing, but it may not be in your case.


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Ron Fogelson

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Re: Yet another braid question
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2008, 10:53:47 PM »

It could be that the fish could see the braid, but my guess is that the fall rate of the Senko on fluorocarbon was faster than with braid (all things being equal).  Braid floats where fluoro sinks (and faster than mono) so the braid could have been slowing the fall rate  :-*


I agree   :)

Nomad

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Re: Yet another braid question
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2008, 04:11:37 AM »

Fall rate...hmmmmmmm we were catching them in pretty shallow water (2-3 feet) so I never even thought about that but as finicky as they were, that could very likely be it.

Quote
Do you honestly believe that a fish looks at your lure and thinks, "Hmmm, I see line, I'm not going to eat that!"

Honestly, I did, especially with slow presentation lures where the fish can come and take a good look at what they're about to inhale, unlike a crank bait or spinner bait, where the bass has a split second to decide to bite or not.  I'm not trying to be contrary, but isn't the emphasis on low visibility, smallest diameter?  Especially in waters that get a lot of pressure?

Quote
You don't mention what the water temps were during the summer
Oh man, the water got into the upper 80's out in that river during the summer so yes, that could have had a lot to do with it too. 

Thanks for the replies...more food for thought  :)
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silversalmon

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Re: Yet another braid question
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2008, 02:07:49 PM »

Hey Nomad, where are you at over here  :-\  I have about 50 days left and need to hook up with you before I head out   8)  ~cf
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OutdoorFrontiers

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Re: Yet another braid question
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2008, 05:00:14 PM »


Honestly, I did, especially with slow presentation lures where the fish can come and take a good look at what they're about to inhale, unlike a crank bait or spinner bait, where the bass has a split second to decide to bite or not.  I'm not trying to be contrary, but isn't the emphasis on low visibility, smallest diameter?  Especially in waters that get a lot of pressure?
 
Thanks for the replies...more food for thought  :)


You think like a lot of people do, and as I once did.  I've since discovered that fish don't really care if there's "a line" coming from the lure.  All they're doing is reacting to basic instincts and water/weather conditions.  Fish are not even close to reasoning creatures, they're genetically programmed to respond to basic conditions, nothing more, nothing less.

If they feel the need to eat, they will, providing it meets the basic criteria i.e. small enough to get into their mouth and passes the test of appearance, sound signature, taste and texture. 

If it doesn't pass the basic tests, they'll either ignore it or spit it out quickly.  If hunger isn't immediate, but the lure still meets the basic criteria, and it's close enough to nab without a great energy expenditure, they'll eat too. 

If they're not hungry, they're not likely to take a lure unless it once again interferes with a basic instinct like reproduction and protecting a nest. 

When I started fishing braid, I used a clear mono leader, however I had problems with knots failing and it was a pain in the butt retying leaders or using swivels.  So I started doing away with leaders in heavily stained water with poor visibility, figuring that if they can't see the line, it won't affect my catch rate.  I was right on that count.  But, I was still using leaders on clearer water.

Then one day I got butt-lazy and didn't feel like going through the hassle of tying a leader on, and just fished my "stained water" rig.  Lo and behold, I continued catching fish, with the hook tied directly to the braided line. 

That was over a decade ago and I'm still catching fish without a leader.  I've done this in northern waters with relatively little pressure, and I've done this in heavily pressured southern waters, as well as clear-water reservoirs in the mid-south and even saltwater, with fast moving lures like rattletraps and spinnerbaits, as well as finesse baits like wacky rigged stick baits and dropshot rigs.

I'm sure I'll get a lot of argument on this, but it's my belief that fish are fish are fish, swimming appetites without any reasoning capability.  It's also my belief that line visibility is more important to the fisherman than the fish!

But this is my opinion, based on my experiences and I'm probably wrong...   ~b~

Steve

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Re: Yet another braid question
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2008, 06:55:04 PM »

Steve, you won't get an argument from me! I agree with you. ;D

The fish seeing things notion could be taken a step ahead, and it could also be argued that they can see the hooks too! This question has come up before in these & other forums. (Red hooks?)

Fly anglers get this argument going sometimes. If a trout can see & feed on insects that could fit on a size 28 fly hook, it's reasonable that they can see the darn hook & the fine diameter line. I would think bass can see such things just as well.

If they could see the line or the hooks & have the ability to reason that such things shouldn't be eaten, then it would be logical that they would not eat any lure.

We know that's not the case!  ~shade

As far as low visibility line, or smaller diameters, the first is marketing hype. There are plenty of anglers who use high visibility lines who catch plenty of fish. Small diameter lines just fit the reels better, providing added capacity, and in some cases, just provide less drag in the water. Has little to do with the fish seeing them. ;)
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larrylargemouth

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Re: Yet another braid question
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2008, 07:14:27 PM »

It could be that the fish could see the braid, but my guess is that the fall rate of the Senko on fluorocarbon was faster than with braid (all things being equal).  Braid floats where fluoro sinks (and faster than mono) so the braid could have been slowing the fall rate  :-*
One other thing you might want to consider.....Did your friend maybe let the senko rest on the bottom a little longer?  Sometimes those few seconds of letting the bait sit motionless or "deadsticking" can trigger strikes.  Just a thought. ;D
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Nomad

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Re: Yet another braid question
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2008, 08:09:23 PM »

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Hey Nomad, where are you at over here

I'm at Osan AB  (http://landinglunkers.com)

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I'm sure I'll get a lot of argument on this

Not from me, you won't  ;D  

Quote
Did your friend maybe let the senko rest on the bottom a little longer?

That, I really can't answer but we do fish pretty much the same way.  Cast, let it sit for a while, twitch, reel a little, twitch....I'm sure there were some differences in our times though.  But, once I switched to mon, I immediately started catching fish  :-\

Sure do appreciate all the inputs though!
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Re: Yet another braid question
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2008, 10:24:55 PM »

I don't want to be argueing with Steve on this one but if you are fishing crystal clear water I think braid will turn the fish off. I have one lake that we fish here that it does make a difference and I have seen it many times .  I can be fishing braid in that clear water and get outfished by my wife who is using Flouro.  now if the water has a slight stain I can't tell the difference but in water that has 10' plus visabuility it does make a difference to me.

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Re: Yet another braid question
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2008, 01:47:18 AM »

The only time I would use braid would be for catfishing, or gar. on a spinning reel only. I have tried all of them, and none of them work on a baitcaster. Braid will work ok on a spinning reel, but floro works on any reel.
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Nomad

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Re: Yet another braid question
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2008, 03:21:35 AM »

Quote
The only time I would use braid would be for catfishing, or gar. on a spinning reel only. I have tried all of them, and none of them work on a baitcaster. Braid will work ok on a spinning reel, but floro works on any reel.

I've never tried it on a baitcasting reel, only on my spinning reels and I have to say that I like it a lot.  No worrying about birds nests or loops being pulled off the reel on casts, it casts smooth and as far as mono or fluoro, and I feel a lot more confident as far as not having a fish break off on me.
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Ron Fogelson

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Re: Yet another braid question
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2008, 06:59:45 AM »

The only time I would use braid would be for catfishing, or gar. on a spinning reel only. I have tried all of them, and none of them work on a baitcaster. Braid will work ok on a spinning reel, but floro works on any reel.

Maybe it's a revo thing   ~roflmao

Most folks have to jump up in line size with braid to prevent the trouble your having.  Rather then going from 10/17 lbs mono/floro we go to 50/65 lbs braid.  Line size is about the same and will help prevent the braid from digging in on it self so bad.  Another thing is to ensure you spool the braid on tight.

Floro, Mono and Braid all have there place while fishing just like open-faced spinner gear or bait casters both excel in different areas.  ;)

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Re: Yet another braid question
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2008, 08:32:21 AM »

The only time I would use braid would be for catfishing, or gar. on a spinning reel only. I have tried all of them, and none of them work on a baitcaster. Braid will work ok on a spinning reel, but floro works on any reel.

HUH :-\ :-\ :-\

I use braid alot, and have never had any problems. My wife does't even have any problems casting it.

I think Fogy might be correct maybe you were trying to use to small dia.

I really don't think that posting braid does't work is very accurate info.

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Re: Yet another braid question
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2008, 09:17:32 AM »

Braid just doesn't works for some folks, I have never had a problem with it but have met others that will never use it again :-\ personally I love it ~c~ Not for all applications, each line has it's use :-*
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larrylargemouth

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Re: Yet another braid question
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2008, 10:26:21 AM »

Braid just doesn't works for some folks, I have never had a problem with it but have met others that will never use it again :-\ personally I love it ~c~ Not for all applications, each line has it's use :-*
Have to agree with Mike.  I use spinning and baitcasters as well as mono and braid.  Each type does excel in certain types of presentations.  ;D
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Re: Yet another braid question
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2008, 11:57:58 AM »

The only time I would use braid would be for catfishing, or gar. on a spinning reel only. I have tried all of them, and none of them work on a baitcaster. Braid will work ok on a spinning reel, but floro works on any reel.

This is an interesting statement....... ~shade

Speaking only for myself..........I now use Power Pro braid from 15 lb to 65 lb on at least a dozen Revo baitcasting reels, all my Musky baitcasters, and all of my Striper baitcasters and have had no problems what so ever.  Started using braid years ago for my Musky fishing like Gorilla braid made by Berkley on Ambasseduer 6000C reels and even with these old reels braid worked well.  Have tried many different kinds of braided line over the years and have been glad to see the improvements that have developed since.  :)

I do have a problem with the limpness of most braids on a spinning reel, it falls off if you are not paying attention. Started using Fireline 10 and 14 lb on my spinning reels, it has just enough memory to stay on the spool, but casts great!  While some think this is a braided line it is not.  Fireline is a "superline" made up of thermal filaments and is a flat line as apposed to braiding micro filaments of Spectra into a round line like Power Pro uses.  Different lines for different situations.  ;D

« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 12:01:22 PM by baron49 »
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Baron49

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Re: Yet another braid question
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2008, 12:05:09 PM »

Now back to the original question.  I rarely use a leader and usually tie the braid directy to the lure I am using.  If I feel the bite is off or the waters I am fishing are getting a lot of pressure I will not hesitate to tie on some fluoro line as a leader just to see if it makes a difference.  99% of the time in the super clear waters I fish it does NOT made any difference at all.
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