Skakespeare's "Red" Cajun Line vs. Bleeding Lures

[Bassthumb]

On the box that Cajun line comes in, it says red disappears in as little as three feet, therefore its line is invisible.   But,

Strike King, (et al) have come out with the bleeding this and bleeding that lure (which is no more than their regular lure with red specs painted on it, and a red hook).

Now, if red disappears in as little as three feet, what good is the bleeding lure?  What about all those red hooks out there...when fishing plastics on the bottom in 8-12 feet of stained water, does it make a difference?

Someone is not telling the [whole] truth...

I did a google search on light spectrum in water, and found numerous papers to support the Cajun Line science.  Generally, in clear water with a direct light source (High sun angle), red totally disappears around 14 feet. In turbid waters, or stained water, it is generally less, with the same sun angle; and early AM and late PM with very low sun angles, red is gone in 2-to 3 feet.

Now do a google search on red fishing lures...

So, I am off to tie on a deep diving bleeding crank bite to my newly spooled Cajun line...  In theory, the fish (nor anyone else) will see my line, but I will Catch more bass who are inticed into hitting my wounded bait...

Am I nuts, or is this just not totally clear...LoL!

Bass Thumb

[Javelin 409]

Bassthumb,
No report from West Lake??

I bought some of that red cajun line too, read the same thing and I am with ya.
Seems like every company is catching fisherman with the "red" theory.

[Skipper (ripnlips)]

Heck you`ve always been totally nuts!!!!!   But I have thought about that also...don`t make much sense too me......I don`t use cajun line but I throw alot of tomato color plastics and I seem to catch alot of fish with them.

[Bassthumb]

But are they hitting scent or vibration?  since they can't see it...LoL  And no, I always thought of myself as In-famous.

Hmm, some tomatoes are green...  Or you are only working in 0-3 feet of water!

[Bassthumb]

I haven't fished West since May 14.  But it was 41° and the wind was blowing near 45 mph...  We caught a few shorts on the grasslines with Senkos...Red-shad I believe.  Now I know why I didn't get any...I was in 4' of water and only half of my senko was visible...LoL

I should have thrown that green tomato Senko...

[bass1cpr]

     There's a difference between refracted light and reflected light. Refracted light is the angle that light rays are bent. Clear lines are amde to have a refracted light value closer to waters refracted light value. Flurocarbon is the closest having almost the same value as water. There fore it is almost invisible in water. Red line well which side of the marketing ploy do you believe in. Which side have you seen work?

[Bassthumb]

I guess clear line can/may act as a prism and refract light. 

Then, colored line must reflect light since it is not translucent (assuming you can't bend a light wave through a solid [opaque] object).  Then, since the science does support the Cajun line (ad on their box and webpage) red must turn invisible with depth.  Therefore, bleeding lures (or red lures in general) are less effective porportional to its depth i.e., the red disappears.

I am not saying that a red colored lure in the top of the column isn't effective--this is a discussion that must assume we are working the lure deeper into the column.

My experience (with colored line)  is limited to clear, smoke and low-vis (the color of P-Line's copolymer extra tough).  As near as I can tell, the tinted lines have worked better for me (but I primarily use the low-vis green colored line since I began fishing).

My experience with "bleeding lures" i would have to say has shown no advantage.

I too, like Skipper, throw a lot of plastics, and I have a fondness for red-shad worms, and strawberry flake senkos...and they routinely catch lots of bass...but I primarily fish those in the shallows and they do have other colors mixed into the red.

So, I guess I am on the fence till someone or something pushes me one way or the other.  However, I intend on testing it in the near future.

Keep the conversation coming...

[blake711]

I didn't think anyone used Cajun line since its was so darn stretchy if you had more than 15 feet out you couldn't set the hook.. 

[Jared LeBlue]

It makes you wonder just how many colors can fish actually see in deeper water or in stained to muddy water. I can see where some colors can be seen in very clear water even in deep water if it's crystal clear and allows light penatration. Just because they can't see the color does not mean that they can't see the object. Basically a worm, crankbait, spinnerbait, or whatever will still be visiable but what color is the fish actually seeing. At certain depths or in stained and muddy water do these baits just appear in a grayish color? Like most gimmicks the red hook is probably catching more fisherman than fish. However I will say that if it boost your confidence than you may actually catch more fish with them but not for the reason these companies are claiming. I think for the most part colors of lures are really designed to catch fisherman. There are thousands of varieties of colors out there and really and truely most everyone has their favorite colors and that's the ones you are going to catch on because those are the ones you have confidence in.   

[bass1cpr]

     I for one can throw red shad worms until the cows come home and not get bit. Red Shad is probably the largest selling color of worm. I have given all of my red shad worms away before to someone who liked red shad. I have been in the boat fishing with a partner that used red shad. He was tearing them up, I fished them and couldn't get bit. I went back to using worms I always catch fish on and went back to catching fish. Confidence you say. Nope I've tried them too many times. I can tell you I have caught two fish on red shad worms in the last fifteen years. IT's not in my carma or what ever you'd like to call it. Watermelon red, green pumpkin red, Black red, and most of the other colors of worms on the market but not red shad.
    Teeter on that fence don't try the red hooks.  There will be someone else that you ask what they were catching them on and he'll probaly say a crankbait with a red hook.  Red, is it a 100%? nope nothing is. But if it increases my chances of winning by 10% on any given day I'll take the ten percent. Strechy red line, I'll stick with my P-line and my Flurocarbon. JMHO

[fishguy]

Here's my take on the red issue .  I used the Cajun line at Table Rock this year and was not all that impressed.  Caught one fish on it.  I could see the line in 14 feet of water so I figured the fish could see it too.  Changed to a Fluorocarbon line and caught fish.  I'll stick with my P-Line for most of my fishing and the Fluorocarbons in the ultra clear water.  When fishing worms I use Red shad nearly 80 percent of the time and catch more fish with it then any other color worm.  Mrs Fishguy uses Red worms exclusively!  For red hooks and Bleeding colors, yes I've tried them, I think they catch more fishermen and fisher-women than fish.  I'll be at Okabogee in Sept and Oct, what color line do you think I'll be using in that clear water?  It want be red!

[luremaster]

I may be dumb as a post but I don't see what color a line is.I don't think fish are smart enough to say hey I aint eating that worm cause its tied onto a line.Fish only got a brain big as a pea dont they?. Have heard that their brain aint even big enough for them to feel pain so I don't think they know much about line ect. I have fished in gin clear water(Alan Henry) with braided line and caught lots of fish. Just don't think it matters.
 

[bass1cpr]

     Luremaster have you ever heard of the term lines sensitive. Fish do have a small brain but they learn. Don't take that braided line to Table Rock unless you just don't want to catch fish. I'm a big fan of Fireline for most waters I fish but clear water requires a clear line or a small pound test green line. You can get away with 6 and 8 lb. P-Line at Table Rock in the spring but the fall is better with Flurocarbon.

[blake711]

     I for one can throw red shad worms until the cows come home and not get bit. Red Shad is probably the largest selling color of worm.

That is deffinatly one of those things that dosen't make sense.. I can say I have caught more fish on Red Shad Power worms than any other 5 plastics colors and shapes than anything.    Very Strange..  Well don't feel bad I think I have caught 3 fish on Rattle Traps in my whole life even though I own like 10 of them..

[bass1cpr]

     Yea blake the two I've caught were on Red Shad green flake powerworms 7". It's just not a color that I'm meant to throw.  The fishing god's have deemed it so.  I have pleanty of friends that Red Shad is their favorite and go to color.
     I have a pocture of a 23 1/2 inch long 18 inch girth bass I caught last Sunday. So catching fish isn't my problem, catching them on red Shad is. 

[Mike Cork]

Hmmmm I have caught plenty of fish on Red Shad colored worms Does present a question doesn't it.

I read somewhere that it had to do with the fact that there was no back ground color to reflect off of, so it was invisible

[Pferox]

I've had good luck bottom fishin with Cajun red, but when it comes to topwaters, I will tie on vanish.

I will say that that cajun is some tuff stuff, and since I'm just usin em for leaders, the stretchyness is more a help than a hinderance.

I can see where alot of that line out would effect hooksets tho.

Now my buddy Mark swears by Cajun and catches lots of fish, of course we don't have many gin lakes around here.

[Ouachita]

I'm trying to think of another way to explain this. Here goes.

Except for braided line, light can pass through line to some degree. It isn't dense enough to block light, but is "clear" enough to let light pass through it. The colors in the light passing through it comes out in generally one of the prime colors in the rainbow. But not with line that is made to be "water refractive". Whatever color you wish to call light passing through clear water, that's what comes out of a water refractive line. Even though the Cajun line is red, the light exiting it is colorless as I call it, the same color as the light passing through the water around the line. But they also made it red reflective. Reflectivity is what happens to the surface of a red-painted object. Full spectrum "white" light passes through water, hits that surface, and is reflected back. There is no light refraction because the surface is generally opaque, painted, light not able to pass through it. It will contrast with the water around it, easily seen in the water. If the painted surface is red, the red component of "white light" will be reflected back. Each of the prier colors reflect back the component of light most closely matching the paint color. Yellow paint reflect the yellow component. Blue reflects blue.

I've scuba dived a few times enough to know that isn't my thing, but I gained from the experience. We wore striped wet suits. In the clear water of Lake Ouachita, at about 30 feet down, when I was face to face with another diver I could clearly see the yellow and red stripes and lettering of the dive center logo, and I could see the rest was black. The spotlights appeared green, as they are bright green colored. So how could I see red that deep? When I got away from another diver, maybe at 20 feet distance from them, everything about them turned gray down there. We were pulling along a rope to keep in line and not be separated, and occasionally the yellow flippers ahead would reappear yellow, then gray out as they went ahead of me.

Red light will only go down that 14 feet AND reflect back up that same 14 feet as a definite red. The total 28 foot round trip begins an "absorption" of the color. When I was down 30 feet I was on the dying end of the maximum distance red light could travel in clear water. By the time it reflected off red colored suit stripes, I had to be very close to catch the last of those red rays.

Back up in the boat, I've many times dropped a red lure down and watched it reach around 15 feet of depth before disappearing. I could still see some objects like rocks on bottom, but not the red lure. In ten feet of water I can clearly see red rocks on bottom. Total round trip for the red light was 20 feet, well within the maximum range.

Now back to the line. Let's consider Berkley's Vanish Transition. Gold on the surface, soon invisible under water. If you push the rod tip under, you will not find the line under water. The light passes through it and comes out the same as light passing throug the water. No light is reflected because the line is not painted, doesn't have an opaque surface. If and when all the light passes through it, it has to be as invisible as white light in water. If, though, some property of the line causes it to appear green under water, that's because the line is not water refractive, but bends the green component of light so only green is visible, the other colors absorbed. It's like a glass prism that is made to only emit a certain color. Because of the cut angle of the glass, only one part of the light spectrum will come out. When you rotate it just a little no light is seen because it's bent away from you. Facets on diamonds are designed to emit one color each little surface according to its angle of cut. A diamond in the rough appears as a dull piece of melted glass with no fire in it. The refractive angles of a well cut diamond cause the colored sparkles. That's the principle behind line refractivity. Reflectivity is the principle behind what makes gold rings shine gold.

So it is a red lure can be seen much deeper than a red refractive line.

Most of my crankbaits are chosen for mid-range, down no deeper than about 12 feet. Sometimes only bait with some red on it will catch bass, while a partner can't buy a bite on any other color.

There were some experiments a few years ago that gave a possible explanation as to how bass vision works. Dots were shined on cards in patterns that wouldn't remind us of a bait. Researchers were able to "communicate" with fish by altering the dots. They concluded a fish sees blocks of dots in groups, like coarse computer screen pixels, relying mostly on motion of the dots, arrangement of the dots, and they range the distance of the blocks of interest by comparing them to the field of dots caused by all the floaters in the water, the structures, cover, other fish. There are certain patterns they have been conditioned to respond to. Missing dots could represent "clear", while another could be what the bass sees for a fin, or an eye. Another suspicion was that fish can watch for just an eye out in the distance, not able to pick out a camouflaged fish body that isn't moving. But no eye can be hid. It could be represented by a peculiar dot of a certain color.

By comparison, what they see is possibly more like a really low resolution sonar screen image of large blocks linked together to form a bottom or structure. Instead of the fine detail of a high resolution screen, the image is more like some Lincoln Log pieces strung together. No research I've read indicated they see anything like humans do. I wish I could get that article. I subscribed to some fisheries journals, paid for by the Corps when working on the Arkansas River, where I'm sure I ran across that.   

Hope that didn't muddy the water too much. I'm just still interested in such things, can't get it out of my system.

Jim

[bass1cpr]

     Jim in the red hook theory thread I gave a similar explination of why the red line was suppose to disapear, and that the shiny hook under the red paint reflected red.  Did you watch a lot of flash gordon when you were a Kid.  I did.  Must be the wave lengths. 

[Mike Cork]

Excellent post, I am going to have to read it again to absorb all of it

[Ouachita]

Bass1, I considered reposting what we wrote back then, but decided to try explaining it different ways. I probably should have linked to those posts back there.

  Yes, I don't think I missed an episode of Flash Gordon, and even had the toy space kit. Wish I still had that, figure it's worth a mint now. 

I thought of a simpler, shorter explanation, maybe, Mike. If it's PAINTED, it reflects, like sunlight off the water cooking yer face. None of that light is absorbed except long red heat waves. If yer diving 50 feet down it gets really dark and scary because light from the sun is both REFRACTED on its way down, the separated rays bent into the light spectrum parts and scattered when rays of white light (containing all the colors of the rainbow) hit water molecules, and those split rays are ABSORBED until no light is left to reach bottom, and for sure none left to reflect off a painted surface back to the surface.

Put a drop of water on a board in the sun. Stand with sun to yer back. See a color coming off it? probably not. Move a little to its side and you might see red, maybe yellow, maybe blue for an instant. Move around more and you might see all the colors, one at a time, very briefly. That's refraction, what happens in light refractive line that lets light pass into it then back out at an angle different than the course it took hitting the bead. The line is made with stuff that lets light go through it as though through a water bead. BUT, if you hold a drop of water between you and the sun it appears clear. Why? Because all the individual rays are bent sideways so you see none of them. If you can stand there seeing the drop of water, you see REFLECTED light coming off the water-tension surface, probably about sky blue if any color at all.

The line isn't quite perfectly the same refractiveness as water, but so close it's virtually as invisible as the water it's in, light passing through the water about the same way it goes through the line. You really can't see clear distilled water. You see whatever light is making its way to your eye from the water, but just enough to let you know a glass is part full. Now compare that to an empty glass and a full glass. Hard to tell without tipping it over, right? If the water has stuff floating around in it it's more visible because some light is REFLECTED off solids. Reconsider drinking such water. 

Jim

[crankin_king]

eye acualy wrote a little article on this subject at another forum( yes eye said it eye'm cheating ) and the reason the red hooks work so well is that they disapear in the water so the fish aren't able to see. Besides all line turns black or grey in 20+ water

[Wristpin1]

When the Red line came out a few years ago it was marketed as the red coloring  providing a trigger effect just like red hooks.....  Now they've switched it to Red being invisible underwater.  Years ago during the "ColorCLector" craze, Red was one of the selections that was "Most Visible" in certain water conditions.

[dawsonb]

You are watching a televison at home all colors look good. Then you watch televison at 15 feet or below and your color televsion is now black and white. That sums it up for us as far as what the fish think 

[cjr4497]

red light penetrates water the least. thus it is the first color to disappear under water. red hooks on a lure or a red lure will become less and less visible the deeper it is fished.

most deep ocean fish are red which makes them harder to be spotted by other fish that want to eat them. black to the contrary, is the most visible under these conditions. a black fish in deep water would stick out like a sore thumb.

that is also why a lot of guys who night fish use black baits. it is the most visible color at night.

to quote Ron Burgundy "it's science"