Reel Chronicles...

[FloridaFishinFool]

Here is something you don't want to see in any classic old Penn SS reel!

The person who owned this reel seemed to "think" that adding oil or grease, looks like oil, to a teflon drag washer was a good idea! NOT!

How it looked when it came apart:



And how it looks now going back together. Keep teflon dry! Teflon is already its own lubricant and does not need any added!

[muzz]

Fabulous...just fabulous..bah.
I've only owned 1 Shimano product over the years, a Tuna Taker rod, which is still fine.
My brother in-law is the Shimano guy in the family, neither one of us(Me Penn/Newell) never had serious issues with giving them C+L, now I read a bunch of good stuff on the CI4+, and finally order one...only to find out the reel is garbage.
Can't make this stuff up.

Thanks for the info Bud

[FloridaFishinFool]

The reel is a good reel. It just has issues! 

A lot of this drag chewing is happening I think because some people are trying to get more drag from the reel than the reel is made to give.

And so the owners tend to really crank down the drag on these reels and what I am showing here is the result.

Now if you can use this reel within parameters and don't crank the drag down so tight it causes this type of problem, then maybe you can get longer time in between service jobs.

Oh, and hey, I just found this image and thought I'd add it in to the mix here.

This is what it looked like when I opened up the spool drag mech and looked inside. Not pretty.

The top drag washer is all chewed up largely due to the design of this new mech. And when added to over cranking down of the drag mech, it squeezes out the drag washer so it can get chewed up by the 4 posts and top piece with the holes in it.

And I think that key washer plate with the 4 holes in it is largely responsible for this shredding of the top drag washer. Notice the lower washers are not chewed up like the top one is.




I am sure you will enjoy using your new reel. I am sure it will be smooth and easy to use and enjoyable to fish with. Just be aware of the drag issue and don't over crank it down too tight.

The less you use this type of design, the longer it will last. The more you crank it down, well, I guess you know... invest in drag washers like the two bags of them sitting on the bench in front of me.

In all the shop and all of the over one million parts we have in stock, if there was ever one part to keep on my bench around the clock it would be these two bags of new shimano drag washers since they are getting chewed up pretty fast around here.

Oh, and hey, one idea for solving this problem might be to just switch over to a different type of drag washer that will not flatten out and spread out from under the key plates to get chewed up on the posts and key plate holes. This is only a theory that might work as a solution.

I am wondering how well some carbon washers would hold up in this reel? I am sure the Penn teflon drag washers would solve this type of problem...

[muzz]

I don't consider a reel with that kind of IDIOCY a good reel personally.
Guess I'm going to have to get rid of it early on, and keep looking around.
I spend decent $ on stuff that will last if I take care of it, not for nonsense like what you've shown.

I appreciate your info and time spent showing this stupidity, it'll save me some aggravation.

Thanks Again

[FloridaFishinFool]

Just finished up 2 of these little beauties! One of the first Shimano Chronarchs ever made a 100A.

These reels are well over 20 plus years old and with nothing more than a tear down, cleaning, and lubrication, these reels will now last another 20 years!

I'd add these to my arsenal if I come across a lefty!

[FloridaFishinFool]

I don't consider a reel with that kind of IDIOCY a good reel personally.
Guess I'm going to have to get rid of it early on, and keep looking around.
I spend decent $ on stuff that will last if I take care of it, not for nonsense like what you've shown.

I appreciate your info and time spent showing this stupidity, it'll save me some aggravation.

Thanks Again

This is the very reason for this thread! It is just an information source showing what I run into on a daily basis repairing reels. The purpose of this thread is to help fishermen make better choices for their gear, and sometimes seeing the insides and problems others have can help each of us make better decisions for ourselves.

So I am glad at least one person can get some use from this thread. I have had several requests to carry this thread over to another forum, but as yet have not found the time or energy to do so.

And if you want to purchase a quality built stradic that will last for decades, try buying a like new older FH stradic off ebay...

plenty of them available... and these FH stradics are from the peak of the stradic line... FG was still on the way up... FH and FI's and FJ's took them over the top, and now down the backside to today...

These FH stradics are what earned shimano the stradic reputation shimano is now shredding with their newer stradics...

I am still buying up all the FH stradics I can!

[muzz]

Wow

[muzz]

Crap

[FloridaFishinFool]

Yep!

[FloridaFishinFool]

So here are some of this week's forum reels...

This first one is a nice Shimano Calcutta 200B. It landed on my bench right straight out of the mail box. Even says so on the ticket.

It also says on the ticket the owner wants a full C&L on the reel and repair the thumbar which he damaged in his failed DIY home attempt. He tried yanking off the left side plate and bent the E clip dragging it down the shaft under the thumbar so it blocked its use and he could not figure it out. He also could not get the line guide working again, and simply did not know what parts went where or in what configuration.



30 or 40 minutes later... so easy to do for trained techs. I'd sure like to watch some of these home attempts on video!



Inside of this reel there is a bushing on the bottom of the main drive shaft. Not a bearing but a specially made bushing. This one bushing requires a specific lubrication.

Grease is not it. Oil, yes, but what type of oil and why? Shimano recommends one specific lubricant for this one part. In fact, the level of engineering of this one part is specially designed to accept a very specific lubrication.

People who attempt this repair at home usually do not have that memo from Shimano and most of the time use the wrong lubricant on this one part.



When reassembled this reel (with my eyes closed - kidding), I counted using 4 separate lubricants for this repair job.

1)For the reel parts.
2)Drag washers
3)bushing
4)bearing lube.

That one single bushing gets it own designed lubricant. Hint... viscosity.

[FloridaFishinFool]

In our shop I am the stradic guy. When a stradic comes in, they come straight to me.

And this takes the cake! One of the best DIY home fails this week! So I called up the owner to ask how far he wanted to go with this repair all revolving around extent of bearing replacement or rehabilitation attempts at the shop.

So in the conversation I asked him straight up how this reel got in this condition and he openly admitted to me that he read all about servicing his own reel on a forum and then watched some youtube video and thought he had it down to a science! So take a look at what forum recommendations and youtube did to this fantastic little reel:

Taking off the rotor the first thing I encountered was red grease clogged up AR bearing! Crammed packed with grease.

What amazes me is that in huge capital letters right on the visible surface of this AR bearing it plainly and clearly says NO GREASE!!!

I suppose Shimano does not know what they are talking about while online experts do! This guy ignored a direct statement to NOT USE GREASE on this AR bearing. But some guy on the internet said to do it!

Yeah well, that was your first mistake! Listen to Shimano. Not people with no connection to Shimano.



Digging deeper...

You can barely even see the needle bearings inside because they are buried in grease! It looks like he used a spatula of some kind and just mashed it in there. More is better right? Ha!

He could have shoved bubble gum in there and get the same results as seen here.



And he wondered why his AR bearing no longer worked! Hilarious! What part of NO GREASE did he miss?

He even put the AR sleeve on upside down. Another reason his reel did not work when he put it back together.



And here are the results of forum recommendations and youtube videos...



Anyone want to hold this reel and go fishing with it? It would slip right out of your hands! It had so much grease and oil in it, it was oozing out everywhere it could get out!



One of the most common things we see on failed home service attempts is that special screws seem to never get back in the right spot. These are side plate screws. I know my image is a little fuzzy because my new phone camera does not take close ups well, but you can see the screws are not the same. 2 are, 1 is not.

They have specific locations and DIY'rs usually don't get this right.Put the wrong screw in the wrong place and damage to the reel will happen. It will damage the reel! Spot specific screws...



This forum reel is the 1st place home fail winner this week!

You know, it is what it is... keeps us in business that's for sure!

[FloridaFishinFool]

Reel price $5.00.

Service? $30.00.

He paid $30 plus parts to service a $5 reel today!

Hey, whatever the customer wants! We are only too happy to comply...

[muzz]

Deleted

[FloridaFishinFool]

It came in as a quick fix. That means we only fix what is broke and do not touch anything else on the reel.

The ticket said only fix bail spring and AR. That's it.



I had to work on this reel with all of this grease in it and get deeper and deeper into the reel just to repair it fully back to working condition.

So I started with the AR froze up from corrosion and broke spring, and then move to the bail finding a broken lever. It was badly corroded from saltwater too and owner tried to bend it to make it work. It didn't.

Also please notice where grease is and where grease is not. Look at gear teeth. Bare. Look under oscillating slider. Bare. Tons of grease inside of this reel and none of it in places where it can do any good.



So once I completed the two things the owner wanted fixed I found out the reel would still not work for him or catch fish.

Why?

Because he attempted to service this reel at home and also came up with a huge fail, but he said he does not read online forums. He just attempted this one on his own.

So come to find out he ground down the front of the drive shaft because he lost the original drag knob and tried to make one he had fit this reel but it would not tighten down the drag at all. Absolutely no drag on this reel.



So back into the schematic, dig up parts numbers, hunt down a new drag knob and main shaft had to be replaced because he ground it down so far, the new drag knob would not even thread onto the reel.

Broken wrong drag knob and part falling out of it on the left, and brand new correct drag knob on the right.  Now it is clear why he thought grinding down the main shaft was a good idea so the old drag knob he found laying around could screw down far enough to push on drag stack.

These drag knobs are not even close! But a grinder will fix it! NOT!





This reel is not worth much. This repair cost more than the reel is worth. And it is only a quick fix repair at that!

This is what my bench looked like before opening this reel. Clean. Now look above after finishing this reel.

I looked like my bench too! 



If this customer had been willing to pay us just $10 more, we would have done a complete C&L.

[muzz]

I was referring to people that send stuff in with this kind of nonsense, please don't take this as something as you...geesh...my word... I thought you knew better.
Sorry for any confusion.

[FloridaFishinFool]

Yeah, I was confused. I went back and edited out some of my whining and complaining!   

I should leave more of that out! lol!

I wonder what the mailman will bring us tomorrow?

Lately I've been letting the shop direct my traffic. Tomorrow I might take a detour and choose some low profile baitcasters to dig into.

[muzz]

Good Luck Kent, something tells me that you'll be dealing with straight up nonsense though!
"I'mma grease up this reel, momma, get me that tub of bearing grease and a spatula please..."

[Oldfart9999]

I'd sure like to watch some of these home attempts on video!

No you wouldn't, I can tell you from personal experience it can get ugly. Shame on Shimano for requiring 4 different lubes, if they don't tell you in the owner's manual then they should repair at no charge any damage a customer has if he puts it back together right except for lube because they didn't tell him in the manual. I've made my fair share of mistakes.  and I can laugh about it now. When you own a bunch of reels and there isn't a budget for all of it you start learning how yourself. Fortunately I've only ruined one reel, a 20$ Shimano spinning reel that I found, I've bought parts for reels when they went flying but that doesn't happen much now. When I got a cell phone with a camera I started taking pics if I didn't know how a reel came apart and went back together and I now have a notebook with parts breakdowns for all my reels. When I just had 6 or 7 reels I would have them done by a local guy, when he moved I started doing my own, I was adding to the numbers also. I've learned about lubes for my reels by reading and am still learning, I've learned to tune my reels and the whole process of tuning or doing normal maintenance helps me wile away the winter. I still take a lot longer to do a reel than professional repair men but it's mostly by choice but then I enjoyed tearing down and going through Rochest Quadrajet carbs in my younger day.
Rodney

[FloridaFishinFool]

Hello Rodney and good morning!

I am going to have to disagree with you on whether or not shimano should inform customers of internal lubricants.

From a Shimano perspective reel owners should not be going inside of the reels. Shimano does not consider their products to be serviceable by every owner out there. The system does not work this way.

Did the company that made your garage door opener inform you of what lubricant to use deep inside the housing of the garage door opener?

(I use this as an example because I just had to replace mine yesterday- and it ruined my boating outing)

When you buy a car, you are informed of what oil to put in the motor, but  inside the dash there are moving parts. Does the car manufacturer inform you of what lubricants are used in places in your car they don't want you going?

Point is, this is not something companies have to disclose. It is proprietary.

How many people service their own refrigerators?
How many people service their own Air Conditioners?
How many people service their own food disposal units?

Shimano also now has more than one drag grease. It is not something they have to disclose as to which grease is used on which reels. They don't want you to know this Rodney because they don't want owners getting into their reels.

And it is precisely because of this growing situation that is causing brands- all of them- to develop new technologies that owners can not service at home without special training and special tools like Daiwa's Mag Seal bearings. The brands are also creating parts made of certain materials that will dissolve with the wrong lubricants. And they are not going to tell anyone what those are and they don't have to.

They do this on purpose because they are trying to protect the expected level of operation for their products and don't consider DIY'rs at home as living up to the brands' expected level of servicing. And it is not just for reels. We see this in just about all products that companies want to protect and expect a certain level of operation from. Their brand reputations ride on those products, and they don't want their reputation tarnished by home servicing gone wrong.

Auto manufacturers are trying to outlaw servicing of their vehicles with copyright laws. With newer protected technologies coming to market ever day, brands are seeking ways to build products customers are not meant to service. Reel brands are joining that movement.

https://jalopnik.com/carmakers-want-to-make-working-on-your-car-illegal-beca-1699132210

Carmakers Want To Use Copyright Law To Make Working On Your Car Illegal

Jason Torchinsky
4/21/15 12:05pm





Auto makers are using DCMA law because in their products are patented and copyright protected software, devices, and other.

Shimano is now building computer controlled reels.

I wonder if they can use DCMA to prevent customers from servicing their own reels?

This type of thing is in the process of happening right now. If auto makers can win this battle, then it will flow over into other markets like fishing equipment too.

While I understand the frustration. I have it too for other products I own like my Evinrude outboard and Toyota SUV which I have to take to factory authorized service centers to get the level of service I want for these products.

Rodney, it is just the way it is. Right or wrong, it is the way it is...

[FloridaFishinFool]

You know Rodney, I confess at home I use different lubricants than we do in the shop.

In the shop we have to use brand approved chemicals and lubricants.

But at home I only use about half of what we use in the shop. I don't use the same grease at home that I do at the shop.

I use something different because of friction testing proved to me what I use at home is superior to what we use in the shop- and this is purely my own opinion on the subject based on those friction tests which you can see on youtube.

I found it interesting the brand of grease I personally use made a video of their friction testing and lubrication abilities and included the brand of grease we use in the shop.

In that test, the lube I use at home beat the lubricant tests of what the shop uses.

But truth be known, both work equally as well in reels because there is virtually 'no load' in reels. Reels are the easy life for grease products so a wide variety of grease will work just fine as long as it is not petroleum based. Avoid those.

I even experiment at home with various lubricants in my own personal reels. Drag grease substitutes are one of my experiments.

So I do it too Rodney!

[FloridaFishinFool]

Today at the shop are the kind of days I love!

I get to work on what I want to work on! So today it is an old Shimano Chronarch 100A. One of the early Chronarchs!

These reels are my passion, but reels in this condition are especially my passion!

This Chronarch is locked up tight! No function whatsoever. Frozen.

Restoring reels like this one to Shimano standards of operation are what I live for!

In fact, the last time Shimano executives visited our shop before ICAST earlier this year I was then working on a Curado B reel in a similar condition when they arrived here.

All of the Shimano executives that visited us were not working for Shimano at the time the reel I was working on was made. They did not join Shimano until decades after many of the reels we work on were made.

So they really enjoyed watching and seeing how we restore some of their older products and keep them working for many more years to come. And they appreciated us taking care of their long time customers for them each and every day.

Some of their questions for us was geared towards what could Shimano do today that could help us facilitate this type of work for their brand and older reels. So interesting discussion ensued.

But today, I had to get out the hammers on this reel and actually damage some parts to get it apart. No other way. But the damage won't be visible because it is under the thumbar, but it had to come off in order to even replace the thumbar. So the parts are reusable, and I may or may not replace certain ones.

When the exterior of a bearing rusts and the aluminum frame also corrodes around it, the two are virtually cemented together, and just pulling and pushing will not work.

So combined with a little bit of lubricant and some careful hammering, slowly, piece by piece, and with a punch or two, this reel slowly came apart. Even the spool was completely locked in and had to be tapped out.

And since parts are no longer available for this reel, the only way it can be repaired is by digging into our parts reels. And I was not about to start on this one unless I had those parts, otherwise it would have been useless to even try and restore this reel.

So today I am living my passion! If I have my way, this reel will see another 25 to 30 years!

Those same Shimano executives would be smiling on work like this!



So I found a parts reel! Parts reels like this are priceless to me. They surrender their life so others can live on!

[FloridaFishinFool]

What a fun day bringing that old Chronarch back to life! She's all done now and I will do the write up later, but one point I'd like to make on reels in this condition is that when I reassemble the reel, I go one step further on the lubrication.

Where bearings are found stuck like glue in the frame on an old corroded reel, I clean the walls the bearing rests on, and then use a thin coat of grease there so in the future, the grease will act as a corrosion prevention agent, and also help to prevent binding so parts and bearings will be easy to remove for this reel's next service.

[FloridaFishinFool]

Days like today are living the dream!

And ever since I started working on reels as a teenager some 40 years ago, this type of reel is what I live for!

As a kid I had to fish with some real junk. Old, crusty junk hand me downs. So I had no choice but to try and fix them myself. And so began a lifelong passion.

Taking one man's junk and trash and turning into my own personal treasure. That is satisfaction. And when I take it out fishing and feel how flawless the restored reel responds in my hands and catches fish like new really puts the icing on the cake!

So today I felt like a teenager again tearing into and hammering into this reel. It was great!

When this reel hit my bench this morning it was a quick fix. At least that is what the ticket said. It said fix thumbar and mistakenly said find handle nut cover, but should have said find cast control knob, but our 19 year old front counter nursing student just made a simple mistake is all.

So I picked up the reel and tried to spin the handle. It clicked. And the broken thumbar just flopped around.

I told her it was not going to be a quick fix, so I needed to call the customer and talk him into a full C&L on the reel which is only $10 more in labor.

So guys, NEVER tell a shop to do a quick fix on your reels if the reels even slightly need overhauling. It is only a $10 difference in price so pay the extra $10 and get the entire reel serviced. (My opinion advice)

So I called this guy up and talked to him about the reel. He told me he had purchased it from some guy online who told him it was in good physical shape but needed a new thumbar so he bought it. Once he received the reel he quickly found out it was useless for fishing.

I easily talked the customer into an entire reel overhaul because he really wanted the reel in good shape and just treating it as a quick fix would not accomplish that for him with this particular reel in this bad of shape.

Years of saltwater use with no service for decades. Everything was corroded, rusted and frozen up. Getting it apart was not easy. I had to tap out the spool because the spool bearing had rusted and the frame had corroded literally bonding the two together as if glued together permanently.

Dirt and rust on inside of spool...



I noticed the handle was not original, but it worked. I removed it, and the drag star and found that whoever owned this reel before our customer got it had been inside the reel many years ago.

This is easy for me to determine because once the drag star is removed the 3 parts under it are specific parts in a specific order, and what I found was 2 spring washers aligned with each other when they are suppose to oppose each other. So that tells me someone has been in the reel who had no clue what they were doing. Mistakes like that should not happen. And because they made that mistake, they now needed a thicker washer in there to operate the drag stack. And that is why the washer was changed out.

And, the white plastic washer is not suppose to be there. A particular Shimano washer is suppose to be there and facing one way. Most people who do this at home forget which way the washer is suppose to be oriented and quite often they are reinstalled backwards. In this reel it was just gone and replaced with plastic.

This is an end user mistake and tell tale sign we pay attention to before we ever even open up the reel.



Once inside, it was not pretty...



In this reel was the bottom of the ocean, seaweed, pieces of wood, and no telling what else was in there along with corrosion and rust to make these bearings "rough" and "noisy". Some of the bearings did not even spin. Locked up.

I know this next image is kind of fuzzy, but it shows the clutch mech is locked up in one position. It is midway between casting and reeling and won't move in either direction. Frozen up.



At this point I began finding tiny little black plastic washers floating around inside the reel. 2 of them. Another tell tale sign someone has been inside this reel in the past.

When I removed the clutch, I found another small black washer on it. None of these washer belong inside of this reel and have no place in there. So I removed them and strictly rebuilt this reel by official shimano guidelines and schematic.



And on this reel, the line guide is peculiar in how it is installed and removed from this reel shown below:



Once all the parts were broken down to individual parts, into the ultrasonic cleaner they went... here is what the frame looked like right after a cleaning in the tank, and just before I hit it with a brass wire brush and dental picks cleaning stuck on stuff off the reel.



Once the frame was done, the spool and spool bearing dealt with, Handle bushing lubricated, etc. I now had to procure my "new" parts from off the parts reel which had to be taken apart to get what I needed off of it.

Here are the parts I had to replace using the other reel. It was that black machined screw at top that I damaged taking this reel apart because it was frozen in place and screwdriver would not remove it. Locked in by corrosion.

I could have reused that screw and it would have worked just fine, but I decided to go ahead and replace it since I had another one handy.

Oh, and one thing I noticed as a difference between the two reels is that it appears someone in the past replaced the worm gear because it was not the same as the parts reel. It was newer design and metal. Some parts just were not the same. Shimano's production changes maybe???



I began to reassemble the reel beginning with the thumbar and line guide. And next moved to the clutch and gears... piece of cake!

Here is the reel back together showing some of the parts replaced and removed





And I cut this guy a break and did not charge him for all the parts I replaced. I gave him one used bearing and the washer under the drag star.

Which by the way, how many out there know what this washer is all about? Shimano produces a special washer for this location, and it is metal on one side and teflon coated on the other side.

But which way should it be installed back into the reel? I can not tell you how many reels we see where the owner put this one washer back in the reel wrong. Its 50-50 chance, and a lot of them get it wrong when they do this at home.



Total price of this repair is $65.08 (plus tax) for a completely frozen up reel restored back to like new.

I love this stuff!

You know, actually fixing reels is so much more enjoyable and satisfying than parts swapping for a career!

Once finished this reel was as smooth and quiet as new! I passed it around the shop for peer review and everyone loved it! So I get to pat myself on the back for another reel saved from the trash!

It is not about the money. It is about the challenge and successfully meeting that challenge and seeing some of my favorite reels get to live again and catch fish again. That is satisfying.

[Basswhippa]

This is one of the most informative reel maintenance threads I have ever seen.  Young people, buy quality equipment.  Maintain it.  It will provide you service for many years.  I have many Shimano's over 20 to 25 years old that are still kicking.   Diawa has upped their recent game. And there are other good options.

[redux]

FFF, did you take any pics of my 71 when you cleaned it? You said there was grass in the reel...I'd like to see what my neglect looks like 

I like nice equipment but am too distracted to do proper maintenance. I can manage to change and clean bearings. Any more than that and I'm just going to go fishing. Thankfully I have a good Shimano tech at my disposal for the real work